Understanding CMI guitars and amps

1bassleft

Hello all, regulars and passers-through. If you have clicked on this because of a search engine looking for CMI info, please take a little time to post in a reply yourself if you have a CMI. I want to nail this complicated story so that everyone knows what they've got, but I'm not The Oracle (Delphi or Matrix) so please help me fix any misinformation or update any gaps. Thanks Smile

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:

OK, so after posting a reply to this thread, http://www.guitarsite.com/hotlicks/viewtopic.php?t=199&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20, I've often been asked about CMIs, or see the info used (sometimes abused) in an ebay listing.

The confusion comes from the fact that there are two CMIs; Cleartone Musical Instrumants of England and Chicago Musical Instruments of the USA. Cleartone is an offshoot company of Jim Marshall and Chicago Musical Instruments owned Gibson from the mid 40s. At the time of writing, the three CMI guitars reviewed on Harmony Central were all bought in England:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/CMI/

There are no bass reviews, although I often see CMI basses for sale. There are a lot (relatively) of CMI amp reviews,

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data/CMI_Electronics/

all for the Standel, CA amps. I have done a review of my British one, which is listed under "Cleartone Musical Instruments". Forgive the mistakes, I was only just starting to learn about the things when I wrote it.

This is what a Cleartone Musical Instruments amp looks like, and notice the logo design:

If your amp or instrument has this logo, it is DEFINITELY a Cleartone. The amps were made in Bletchley and the guitars were imported from Japan. This FleebUK auction for a solid-state CMI amp also has the same logo:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7418404886&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:UK:1

I have seen the same logo on a Rick 4001-style bass (in the flesh) and various Fender-style basses and guitars. But I've often seen another style of logo, with a lowercase "c", uppercase "M" and lowercase "i" with a star in place of the dot. Here are some examples:

Now, I assumed this was NOT Cleartone, and actually told a Jazz seller on the Fleeb that it's not Marshall-imported. I figured it was the Chicago CMI. I'm starting to wonder, though. First there's a lot of this logo selling on British auctions, which is odd if they're imports of an American company. Also, I've seen virtually identical guitars with the two different logos; I'm sure they're from the same factory. Next, I suddenly had the sense to look up CMI guitars on US auctions. Here's a couple of them:

This is a different logo again, but both the guitar and bass have an 80s, Aria look to them and I would bet that they're not Japanese. I've found a picture of the Standel CMI SG212 amp of the 70s, but no logo:

If anyone has any CMI amp or guitar PLEASE POST HERE. I want to try and sort this out. Pictures and any history would be appreciated and see my other sticky thread "posting pics on guitarsite" to find out how to do it easily. As the police say, any information, however little you think you can tell, will be of use. I'm particularly interested in logos and definite information about where it was made.

Thanks.

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:21 am Post subject:

Also, Brian (who I reckon did the HC review of a LPS guitar) has asked me if CMIs imported into Britain were made at the Ibanez factory, because the CMI tuners look identical to his old Ibanez. I'm hoping he will put a pic up of his LPS, because so far I'm doubtful. A Fleeb dealer listed a CMI odd-looking Precision as Fuji Gen-Gakki (the plant that made Ibanez) and I disagreed with him. His CMI precision had that Telecaster-like pup that Musicmasters had, and really naff mini-tuners. I own a Japanese "Yamato" bass that's exactly the same and have seen one branded "Maya". I've also seen a Maya Jazz with block markers that look like the "other logo" CMI jazz:

Frankly, all CMI basses I've seen (including the 4001 copy I mentioned) and the Maya/Yamato brands are not up to the usual standards of FGG Ibanez, Greco and Antorias of the same period. Mustard mitt, the CMI guitars I've seen have been better, though bolt-on necks, even on a Gibson copy. Better than those 70s brands like Satellite, Avon and Columbus that came out of Japan, but no Tokai beaters. Maybe CMI used different factories. Again, I'd really like to see pics of your guitars - American or British CMIs.

SteveShark · Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 1

Hi there!

I'm new here by accident but 1bassleft contacted me via email and asked me to post details of my two CMI guitars.

So, here goes - if I mess the HTML tags up, then go to:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_mudshark/sets/72057594077196720/

Here you can find all the photos I'm linking to here and in much larger sizes and better quality.

1) CMI Jazz Bass - made in Japan

I got this in the mid 1980s as I needed a bass to lay down bass lines on my 4 track. I paid something like £40 for it in a music shop in Bedford. It played in tune and didn't sound too bad at the time.

The body is laminate and, as you can see the pickups are cheap Tele types - the black plastic plate that the bridge unit is mounted in is obviously meant to be covered but I haven't got the cover.

The neckplate says "MADE IN JAPAN" quite clearly.

The tuners are rather nasty - they're those sort with the pressed covers and the pegs are totally wrong if the makers wanted to produce a copy.

The logo is the curly CMI sort with the truncated "C".

The bass has lost a thumb rest somewhere along the line as well as the bridge cover.

All in all, it's a pretty low-rent instrument although it does play in tune and makes quite a good dead "thud" which is suitable for whacking out the odd reggae bass line when the fancy takes me.

2) CMI Telecaster

I acquired this in about 1990 when I exchanged a rather nasty Korean Squier Strat for it in a local music shop. I had to pay VAT on the Tele to clinch the deal and IIRC it cost me about £14 which puts the shop price of the Tele below a ton.

It has a solid body, which I discovered when I had to realign the neck in the pocket. I also removed the brass nut - I don't know whether this was stock - and replaced it with a tusq one and it's had several nuts which I've fitted depending whether or not I want it for slide playing.

The tuners were rather good cast and sealed Gotohs when I got the guitar but I replaced them with a set of Grovers that I had lying idle.

The logo is quite clear - it's the block sort - and it's accompanied by the words "Artist Model".

The string retainers aren't original. They replaced the old sort made of pressed metal. These came from the Korean Strat as I had the Tele in my possession before I let the Strat go. Slightly naughty of me, but the guy I was dealing with was a much bigger shark than I was Wink

The neckplate is blank.

As you can see it has a three piece bridge which is fine, even though some people say the intonation is a compromise with these. It plays perfectly in tune! Brass saddles too.

It's actually a rather good guitar. It feels and sounds like a Tele and I have a MIM Nashville and a US Standard to compare it to.

Living in Milton Keynes - which includes the home of Marshall in Bletchley - I am lucky enough to count Jim Marshall's son Terry as a friend and now that I'm aware of 1bassleft's determination to unravel the story behind the logos I'll see what Terry can add to all this.

I hope I've provided enough detail - I'll be only too happy to provide more if possible.

If you want to see the rest of my "collection" then most of them are shown in:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_mudshark/sets/1670159/

There's also some other photo sets there which should give you a general idea of where I'm at musically.

Steve.

1bassleft · Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

Steve, thanks for the great post. I would love to hear more, if you can talk to Terry. My top Qs would be, "Did Cleartone ever change their logo from that block CMI to the scripty cMi logo?" and "Did Cleartone use Fuji-Gen Gakki, and/or any other Japanese factory?"

Looking back at your Jazz bass, it's interesting to compare it with the much better quality Jazz copy above, even though they are both "cMi" type basses. I'm wondering now if only the "cMi" quality varies from poor to respectable - I can't be certain if the block CMI ever had an example of the not-so-good.

I mentioned Maya and Yamato as being very similar, well here's my Yamato semi-precision. I've seen identical ones as Maya and cMi. You'll notice the hardware similarities to Steve's cMi Jazz (pups, bridge and tuner). It also has a neckplate simply stating "Made in Japan".

The body is either ply or the weirdest looking stuff (can't be sure from the internals; the paintchips reveal some nasty looking wood). There is no way Jose that these came out of FGG, so not every cMi/CMI fits that story. (EDIT) I still don't have any indication that any of the CMIs were built by Fuji-Gen Gakki.

Hopefully, by now, you can see that a CMI with an extended "C" block logo is a guitar imported from Japan by Marshall (unless it's an amp, in which case it was made in Bletchley alongside the Marshalls). The "C M I" logo seen on those '80s guitars in the USA I am assuming were sold by Norlin using CMI as a brand (please let me know if you disagree). American amps with CMI on them will be the Standel made SG Systems amps mentioned above or Kalamazoo amps (http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/) so ANY valve CMI going cheap is well worth having.

The cMi logo guitars (I've never seen an amp) are made in Japan. At least some have never been anywhere near any "lawsuit" factory and I'm wondering who the brandowner was. If it is cMi not just "Mi", then my guess is either Cleartone guitars imported and sold before the amp line started (1976) or another possibility...

The British arm of Selmer was taken over by Chicago Musical Instruments in the 70s (http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/gallery/gallery3/stor.html for Steve Russell's excellent Selmer and other vintage Brit amps site). Perhaps, because Chicago were certainly not interested in Selmer's amps, they began importing budget guitars into Britain using the CMI brand? I'll see what Steve knows...

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:22 am Post subject:

Steve Russell of the Selmer site has come back to me. As far as he knows, the Chicago MI takeover never resulted in Selmer selling guitars under that brand. He's looking deeper but, in the meantime, he's found a 1979 Cleartone CMI guitars ad from a magazine. He'll be scanning it for me and I'll update ASAP.

Also, Brian will be posting his CMI LPS soon (a very nice one, bolt-on but decent looking mahogany etc) and I have pics of another double-cut to put up. Meanwhile, have a look at this LP Goldtop imported by Marshall:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CMI-not-gibson-LES-PAUL-GOLD-TOP-1970s-LAWSUIT-ERA_W0QQitemZ7397248279QQcategoryZ2384QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Definitely not ply, and decent quality hardware.

BrianJ · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Sunny Devon UK

BrianJ wrote:

Hi everyone. I'm new to this kind of thing so please be patient if this post comes out completely garbled! ' Confused

'
Oz has put me on the right path - I hope!
I'm the keeper of the LPS DC that's reviewed on HC. Here are some pics of the guitar.

Note that the machine heads are identical to Ibanez and other reasonable quality Japanese guitars of the late 70s

The body is all mahogany with block construction between two thick veneers. Great fast neck that's also mahogany with rosewood fretboard. Finish is really tough and the bolt on joint is well made.

The pups are dog ear P90 clones that actually sound like the real thing and have the same impedance. I'm wondering if these Japanese firms bought them in from Gibson? The covers are brass with black satin lacquer. My local guitar store man who has been in the business for over 35 years tells me that the CMI DCs were only around for about a year or so and were very expensive - he says around £150 in 1978 - so they didn't sell well. Thanks to Oz I now understand a lot more about these guitars. If you want to hear one it is played on the Belita Adair album called Dark Erotika. http://www.musicnoyz.com/artists/bands/9/ Its played by Steve Mills, who has a modified CMI LPS.

Quote:

1bassleft · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:04 am Post subject:

Thanks for posting, Brian. I've received word from Steve Russell; Selmer guru and such a good egg that he is Salmonella-free and immune to bird 'flu Smile

. After looking at the Selmer '72 price list, he's found no obvious "cMi" link, so that stymies one of my theories. He's also sent me a fantastic scan of "Beat Magazine" from August 1979, showing the RRP for "Cleartone" guitars and amps.

Until I find a good way of posting it, I'll just get by with a quick summary for now. This all refers to the Cleartone CMI guitars available in Britain; please post here if you have other information on Chicago guitars.

In 1979 (this is a year at most before Jim Marshall was out of the Rose-Morris deal), Cleartone offered a number of guitars under the CMI brand. "SC", "TL", "LS", "SG", "ES", "PB", "JB", "EB" and "RK" codes don't require a leap of imagination. The price list indicates that, in '79, the CMI was not a guitar for mugs. A CBS-Arbiter Fender Tele was then retailing around £300. A CMI ranged from just under £100 to over £200, depending on the particular model, and was a bit higher than the Antorias of the day.

There's wide price-spread though, so it's caveat emptor until more history can be built up. I won't put up the scan but if anyone would like to see it or enquire about their model number, make a post here and I'll chime in or email you the scan.

1BL

Maximilian · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1 Location: Dubai

Hi there Guys,
I have just purchase a CMI amp, not Guitar so am proable in the wrong forum,
but like everone else I know very little about them, Mine is equipted with 3 10' celition red lable speakers (never see 3 in one cab befor) and is named the MAXIMIN 30 W tremelo Master (which i belive equates to a pitch/ wave range ind amplification terms), I also know that they were fairly unsucessful as a cheap amp in the 70's and only made for 1 year 76-77 I think. and also many did not make it past the proto type stage mine says July 1977 Z501 as a serial number Rolling Eyes

on the back. any info or direction to another sit would be a great help I will try and post a pic, (havn't recieved the amp yet and will send picks of the inside when it arrives.

.

EDIT: working pic uploaded by 1BL

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:42 am Post subject:

EDIT: I've sorted your pic, Max and thanks very much. The amp side of both CMIs is very much a subject for discussion here. I'd look forward to more info and pics when you get them.

That Goldtop sold for £99 with just one bid and another double-cutaway on eBay UK only raised £105. I think they're better guitars than that sort of money; certainly the block logo CMIs. The double-cutaway seller kindly allowed me to post up his pics after the auction ended.

The bridge humbucker is apparently an aftermarket job.

Definitely a Marshall CMI logo.

Bolt-on again, no sign of any markings on the plate.

Not the original tuners. You can see the screwholes for the previous set.

Also, there is an auction up for a Park transistor amp:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Park-Marshall-8-Watt-Guitar-Amp_W0QQitemZ7402071398QQcategoryZ10171QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This is a 70s Park, not the Korean-made things from the '90s. Around the back, a completely different CMI logo can be seen. I still have no idea where these "cMi" guitars have come from:

So, apart from the block logo, I'm still no nearer to confirming which CMI guitars were Marshall or someone else, and the Fuji-Gen Gakki story is still just that; a story.

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